I hesitate to write this, and I told myself that I would not step into this debate on this particular platform. I know that I am at risk of alienating dear friends as I write this, and that the stakes are high on both sides. I would very, very much appreciate it if you would extend grace to me, and be gentle with me in comments.
I went on my Twitter feed this morning, and within five minutes I was so sickened by the nature of the tweets on women bishops that I had to tear myself away.
I am an egalitarian because when I look at the varied and complex passages on women in ministry in the Bible, I am persuaded that the Bible says that it is good for women to teach the Bible and lead churches. But the particular passages are confusing and seemingly contradictory – sometimes women are involved in leadership (for example Priscilla, Junia, Euodia and Syntiche, Phoebe), and sometimes they are told not to teach (in 2 Timothy). It is the job of the Bible student to work out which is the rule, and which is the exception. Though I disagree with those who are complementarian, I can see why they reached their position and I respect them for their desire to be submissive to God’s word.
I ache for the women who have been sidelined for so long, who have been treated as inferior, who have felt like they have had to fight for their place and been excluded and treated with a lack of respect. I know this deeply and personally, and in my ministry there are many times when I felt the crushing wounds from people who said that I was sinful for wanting to teach the Bible. I am glad to be part of the Church of England where women are able to serve alongside men, and I think that it is a good thing that there will be women bishops.
But I do not wish to demonise those who, in good conscience, have looked at the same complex Bible passages as me and come to a different conclusion. It is simply not true to say that complementarian is the same as misogynist. Most complementarians do not view women as inferior, whatever the letter in today’s Independent may claim.
You can feel sexism, you can smell it as soon as it occurs, and it is not necessarily anything to do with theology (although that can come into play). It is the dismissive looking past you, the patronising smile, the thinly disguised surprise that you are here at all, shocked at your audacity to play with the Big Boys. It is horrible, and I have encountered it from both egalitarians and complementarians. Equally, I have had people on both sides of the debate who have affirmed me and my ministry and leadership, and I feel a special gratitude to those who have done so even while disagreeing with me theologically.
I would like there to be women bishops. But as it stands, this measure would effectively force out those who cannot accept it for themselves. (I know that those on the pro-side would say there are more than enough concessions, but the fact remains that the conservative evangelicals and Anglo-Catholics are genuinely unsure of whether they have a place in the church, and they feel that they are being forced out.) I was really hoping that there might have been a solution that could provide adequate provision for my Anglo-Catholic and Conservative Evangelical brothers. I want women bishops, but not in this way, a way that pushes out and excludes, and sidelines. I know how that feels, how it has felt.
I know that there are those who are crying out for justice. I know that sexism in the Church of England and other churches is rife, and needs to be dealt with and ended, that it can feel all too often like a Big Boys club, and that this is so important for women in ministry to feel validated, honoured, valued as equals. I know that the establishment of women bishops will not end sexism in the Church of England, but that it will go some way to healing the hurts, and would be an important symbolic step.
But to take this step in a way that pushes out conservative evangelical and Anglo-catholic brothers? I do not want that.
I have no conclusions, no answers or strategies. I do not know which way the vote will go, and I anticipate heartache for the Church whatever the outcome. I am praying, and I hope for an outcome that brings God glory and helps his kingdom. I am praying for God’s word to be upheld and honoured, and not dismissed as peripheral. I am praying for peace, somehow.
This feels intensely personal to me. I have a dear, dear friend who is helping to lead the campaign for women bishops, and another dear, dear friend who is leading the campaign against. I feel the pain and hurt on both sides.
I feel like a child whose parents are divorcing, and all I can do is weep.
Liked this post? Do stay in touch – subscribe by email or like my Facebook page.
Dear Tanya,
Thanks for your honest and gracious reflections on the matter – it’s good to see an example of Christians managing to disagree in a loving, thoughtful and understanding manner rather than the bitter, name-calling and almost vitriolic nature that all too often seems to characterise these debates …
As such, I would say that from my understanding of Scripture I disagree with your position, but I really, massively appreciate the loving graciousness that you have extended to those who hold a different position to your own – pointing out that it’s not out of an attempt to subjugate women or because their ministry is not valued. For example, I dearly love my wife – and she is an invaluable partner to me in our ministry together – she helps me massively in my leadership, advises me and encourages me again and again and again and I would honestly struggle to do it without her. Just because I am the leader, does not mean that her contribution is not valuable – in fact, I’d say that it’s absolutely vital … and my leadership would not be the same without her.
I think it’s always easy to forget in this debate, that power and authority are not everything – the leaders of a church are not the only ones who have an incredibly valuable ministry. Peter describes the whole church as a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9-12) – we all have a hugely valuable role to play – this is backed up in Paul’s teaching on the church being a body in 1 Corinthians 12. I believe that Churches work best when the whole body is pulling together in it’s ministry – and every part is valued, regardless of their gender/position/authority. And most of all, we have the ultimate example of Jesus who left the splendour and glory of heaven to be humbled to death on a cross … I think on all sides, as you have done in this post, we need plenty of humility, grace, love, understanding … and prayer!
Thank you … 🙂
Tanya, just referred to your blog for the first time. Love this entry and others. Thanks so much. (Just realised I posted this on another entry and meant to post it here!)
Thank you for both these comments! 🙂
Tanya, thanks for creating space for such a lively (meaning informative) discussion. It also warms my Scottish heart to read the names of those commenting.
Thanks, Amy. And I’m glad to be of service in warming your Scottish heart! 🙂
Dear Tanya Marlow,
The established denominations have allowed tradition, politics and secularism into the Church.
God is very clear in my opinion with respect to women’s role in the church. The church is not a building or an organisation but the Church of Jesus Christ which is the body of Christ. I.e. All Christians that have confessed Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and are Born Again. Without spiritual understanding from the Holy Spirit the Bible seems like just instructions and rules. However behind every commandment and instruction there are spiritual principles that have been set in place by God and they cannot be changed just like gravity. You can try and work against them but you will get nowhere.
God only blesses that which is done out of faith and in accordance with His will and not ours. His will is what is written in the Bible and you can understand everything if you look at it with an open heart and an attitude that you want to learn about Jesus and His Father and come into relationship with Him. Trying to find proof for your own opinions will not work and your education means nothing. God says what He means and means what He says. Yes there are seemingly difficult passages to understand but at the right time when you are ready they will make sense. Jesus wants us to get on and do what can be easily understood. I have many posts on my website including one which I just posted concerning women in the Church which is soundly scripturally based and hopefully will help clarify and questions you might have.
http://raymondjclements.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/the-new-testament-church-the-role-of-women/
There are a lot important things to do than argue about women Bishops. I believe like many other Christians around the world that we are in the end times and the church of Christ should be maturing to be adults and not mere babes able to minister to the unsaved about the tribulations which will come, some of which have already started.
Jesus said that we can tell that the time is near when you see wars, rumours of wars etc.
May Jesus give you grace and revelation about His word and the faith to walk it out.
Yours in Christ
RaymondTheBrave
Raymond,
Imagine a society where the life of the family was exclusively focused on fathers: mothers didn’t even have a name. Fathers received all of the praise, honour, and attention. They were the only ones who voices really counted in the running of the life of the family, or in the raising and teaching of the children of the family. Women were sidelined and their talents and extensive work went unacknowledged, suppressed, and unused.
Over time many within the society had enough of this unjust situation, and pushed for a change: they tried to introduce legislation allowing women to become fathers, just like men. Many men and not a few women pushed back against this, pointing out that only a man could be a father. In the end, their position carried the day and women were forbidden from becoming fathers.
Now, even if we believe that saying that women can’t become fathers is the right position to hold, can we really believe that the situation that would follow the defeat of this legislation would be a good thing and not oppressive to women? Can we not recognize the pain of women whose gifts go unrecognized, unsupported, and unhonoured within the life of the Church? While we may not believe that the gifts and roles of the women in the Church are rightly recognized as the gifts and roles of bishops, can we not feel the pain of their marginalization with them as fellow members of the body of Christ, suffering where they suffer? Can we really rest satisfied with a situation short of one in which their gifts and roles receive the full recognition and honour due to them?
I believe that God does not say ‘no’ to us without having something better in store for us. I really don’t believe that the status quo represents that for women. Sorry, I just can’t. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if, instead of hitting others with Bible verses when they are down, we instead sought to pursue a better way together?
Dear Alastair,
I found it difficult to follow what you are saying. Women have a very important role in society and especially the family. You focus on males/fathers in the family I cannot understand your point. Wife’s are equals in the marriage but as God says the head of man is Him and the head of women is man. I think you are misunderstanding what head means. The man protects the women if she is submissive to his spiritual authority and this is very clear from the scriptures which are our standards by which we should live and not by what the world says or tries to conform us to. God spiritually protects the man if he submits to God. It is the order and way that God has set up His kingdom, I did not set this up but Jesus did.
Proverbs 31 is a great section on the worth of a women and mother. When you get married and man and a women become one flesh and the women is called a help meet.
However the real issue being discussed I thought was the question of women Bishops. My comment above and the post on my blog I have made show what Jesus has to say about leadership in His church. If you call yourself a Christian then the Bible is what we live by and not our own opinions. Quoting scripture is what Jesus did all the time and it is how we should live when it comes to defending our faith. I do not quote scripture all the time and especially not to secular people. I operate in love. The basis for the Anglican church should be what the bible says and not some theological debate on how to keep up with the times and have more converts or parishioners. The Bible is very straightforward but man wants to make it complicated.
On the question of the exceptions when a mother becomes a widow or a husband becomes a widower the bible handles these exceptions in a pragmatic and Godly way. A widow should be supported by the church around her and God becomes her head as she no longer has a husband. Remember He is Abba Father. Too many people look at the exceptions in society today and want the rule to resolve around those exceptions but by definition they are exceptions which God is more than a where.
How do you define your faith if not what is in the Bible? You cannot accept some scriptures and ignore others. How can you justify that at all as a follower of Christ.
Yours in love and hope.
RaymondTheBrave
Raymond
I don’t know if you know Alastair at all, or if you’ve read anything else that he is written. He is not someone I would ever wish to charge with defining his faith elsewhere than in the Bible, and he does not accept some scriptures and ignore others (other than to the extent that we all do that unwittingly). In other writings, he has bravely and clearly defended biblical Christianity in ways our culture finds hard to hear.
Alastair is not saying that. He’s rather saying that there is a time to recognise that there are fellow members of the Christian church who are deeply hurting, and to try and feel some of the pain they feel. There are times to martial biblical arguments on an issue, and there are times simply to sit down and weep with those with whom we don’t agree.
The arguments for and against women holding particular offices in the Church of England have been well rehearsed over recent years. Possibly neither side has heard the other view as carefully as would be good – and this comment thread has a few posts in it that have helped overcome that. What’s needed today is not for either side to restate those arguments. As one part of the body suffers, the others suffer with it, and today is a sad day whatever your persuasion.
Tanya’s original post courageously made the point that the vote we got was the least damaging of two bad options. Whichever way Synod had voted yesterday, a lot of people would have been hurting this morning. Me – I’m numb. Let’s pray for one another, pray with one another, and work to find a better way forwards together.
Thanks, James. That is exactly what I am saying. Now is not the time for rehearsing arguments against each other, but for being present to, praying for, and supporting each other through an experience that has been incredibly sad and painful for almost all of us, wherever we might stand on the issues.
A big amen on this from me – thank you, James.
Hi Raymond,
I’ve followed the link to your blog and posted a comment there. The reason I’ve chosen to post it there rather than here is that I don’t think this particular comment stream is the place for a discussion of the issues in the way I have in my comment. Tanya, if you want to, you’re welcome to read the comment over there, but feel free not to too!
Thank you, Tanya, for expressing so eloquently what I feel as an ordained woman in the CofE, who is in favour of women bishops (if they are appropriately gifted, godly and called to that office by God) but who is also in favour of a safeguarded and honoured position within the CofE for my brothers and sisters who in all conscience are not…
Encouraged by people such as this.
Hi Tanya, found this wonderful blogpost by way of broken cameras. I think your last line sums it up perfectly. This doesn’t feel or look like a debate within a loving family but a divorce. Someone will gain the lions share of the alimony but I think whoever wins will have a fragmented, angry, hurting church to minister within. I pray that God will be with both the winners and losers come this evening.
Thanks so much for venturing over here.
It’s just really sad, isn’t it?
Praying with you that God will work, somehow to bind and heal.